Next to having a big affinity for cultural anthropology, Kyra also has a love for making art and design. She aims to explore the junction between academia, research, and multimedia technology in order to communicate complex topics through creative narratives. She aspires to work in academia or an NGO environment that supports research and the translation of social issues through creative storytelling.
She is currently on a book tour along the European coast and will visit at least 10 surf camps to exhibit her work, Sea-ing the Land—a photo and video installation, accompanied by a photobook, based on the anthropological research she conducted in Australia that explored the interplay between the land and the sea.
You can get a copy of Kyra's Sea-ing the Land here.
Watch Kyra's multimedia ethnographic exploration of 'Waves of Freedom', an anthropological research conducted in Rainbow Bay (Australia) here.
Social Media Profiles:
- Sea-ing the Land
- What is anthropology?
- Why is anthropology interesting to you?
- Tell us about the anthropologist you were working with in Oz.
- How did you come up with the idea for the book?
- Tell us about the book
- Tell us about the tour
- Have you visited any of those countries before?
- What is the story you are trying to tell?
- Tell me about your interest in art?
- How do art and anthropology intersect?
- What was your first surfboard?
- What was your favorite trip?
Location: Utrech, Netherlands
Saltwater High. Today, I have Kyra with me. Welcome, Kyra. How are you?
Good, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely. So this podcast, I'm in California and you are in Holland, is that correct?
That's true, I'm in Utrecht.
Utrecht. Yes, I actually know Holland pretty well. That's a whole other story, but yeah. So where is your local surf spot?
It's called Scheveningen.
It's actually kind of a joke we make in the Netherlands to tourists. We always ask them to say Scheveningen because it's kind of hard to pronounce.
Super hard. Yeah. I actually surfed Zandvoort?
Yeah, that beautiful beach. Yeah, absolutely beautiful beach.
Yeah. I think we have the best waves in Scheveningen because we have a pier there and then it comes in a bit better. But if we have some good swells, Zandvoort is nice as well, but it's just a little bit less protected.
Yeah. And how cold would it be in the winter?
Yeah. Like freezing. You will get this brain freeze whenever you get underwater. But yeah, we still go. Because the waves are best in winter actually. In summer, it's kind of flat.
Yeah, last time I was in Amsterdam, I was in the middle of Amsterdam and I saw these 2 guys on scooters with surfboards under their arm, and I was like, "Where are they going to surf from Amsterdam?" What's the closest place in Amsterdam?
Well, I think it would be Zandvoort.
Oh, okay. It would be then. Very cool. Awesome. So let's talk about anthropology. I saw you studied anthropology and you're an anthropologist, I guess you could say. How would you define anthropology?
I think it's the study of cultures and subcultures and societal issues, but then you could also think that would be like social science, right? But what differs anthropology to other social sciences is our methodology. So we do everything with qualitative research methods. So we do nothing with statistics or numbers or anything.
Oh, really? I didn't know that. Okay.
Yeah, so what we do actually is we use the methodology of participant observation—that's the way we call it. And we go into the subculture, we study, and we try to participate within their daily life and get to know their worldview or their specific thoughts on different topics. And that's the way we gather our data. So, yeah, you could actually study every subculture you're interested in, but it's just the way we do it that differs or that makes a difference to other social sciences.
Yeah, and so how do you think the anthropologist prevents tainting the observation? Not projecting their own worldview onto the worldview that they're observing. That must be a really hard thing, right?
That's a very good question, actually. And there is a lot of discussion about this within anthropology, of course, because we as a person have our own research methods and there are different kind of ways to do so. So we always reflect on everything we do. So that's like an ongoing thing and we as anthropologists, we try to kind of step back from whatever we are, whatever we think, and try to let the others speak and then, of course, afterwards we kind of analyze what people said or what people think, and then we connect that back to bigger social concepts. So there's like a bridge between a meta-level of thinking and kind of what's going on at the ground.
Hmm. And why did you choose anthropology personally?
Well, I have a background in art. And I actually first did art academy and I graduated as a social designer. And as a social designer at the art academy, we try to make design and art for societal issues. But then we didn't research them. We only kind of looked at it very shallow. So maybe we read a news article and then we thought we knew everything about it. And then my teacher, she was an anthropologist and she kind of showed me the way anthropologists look at societal issues and problems. And she gave me some books to read. I kind of acknowledged that I didn't know anything about social issues while I was a social designer. And then I just wanted to know more about more legitimate ways of researching social issues. And that's how I got into anthropology.
It seems like a really nice synergy between the 2, right? Because the more you understand something, probably the better you can express it through the art, right?
Yeah, exactly. And that's where I'm at right now.
Yeah, very cool. So social designer, I'm not familiar with how does that show up in the world—the social designer?
Well, it can be kind of everything but the basis of a design, it could be maybe you know the solar lamp, Waccamaw or something like that? And it's also made by social designer. And he saw that there are problems in areas like Africa where people don't have lights, but they have a lot of sun. And then he came up with a design of a solar lamp to help them out so he kind of made the design for a societal issue. So I think it's kind of more relevant art and design if you could say so.
So it could be designing products or like you've designed a book, right? Designing ideas that maybe addresses or exposes social issues, something like that?
Yeah. I think it's a good way of saying it.
Yeah. In America, I don't know if we have anything like that, right? But I love the idea because as a business owner, when I'm making products, basically, I'm making products to solve a problem, right? Like a surfboard bag solves the problem of getting your surfboards from point A to point B in a way that is safe and stylish or however that shows up, right? So I guess the social designer would also be doing that but in a more maybe humanitarian level, right? Like you said, the Africa idea.
Definitely, yeah. I think maybe the only thing the differs is the economic part of it, that maybe the social designer does not always want to make money out of it. Where you are a business, of course, that's part of what you do. But I think in a way, what you do with the board bags, it could be seen as social design as well.
Yeah, I love that. I'm going to put that on my Instagram, Social Designer Derek Dodds. Very cool. Very cool. So you went to Australia and you studied with this anthropologist. Tell me about the anthropologist you studied with.
Well, actually, I did the research by myself.
Oh, you did? Okay.
Yeah. There was no other anthropologist there. But of course, it was part of my master studies here. So, yeah, I went there all by myself, I didn't know anyone.
I only made up this idea of what I wanted to do from home, from Utrecht.
Okay. And what was the thesis or the premise of what you were looking at? Sea-ing the Land, I love the way you put those phrases together. Sea-ing, obviously it's like a double entendre. You meant seeing the land like you see with your eyes. But then you use S-E-A-I-N-G. So tell me a little bit about how that all came about.
Well, I was mainly interested in a community where surfing is part of the daily lives. Because here in the Netherlands, like we talked about it before, we don't have waves that often and it's not really part of our daily life. Whereas I think maybe where you are or at least where I went in Australia, it really was part of the daily life. And so I was interested in how people kind of live between this space, between the land and the sea, within their daily life, and how it kind of influences their worldview and whatever they're doing. And then I came across this famous anthropologist, Tim Ingold, and he says or he kind of asks, "What if instead of landing the sea, we try seeing the land?" So this was kind of my biggest inspiration to not look at what the sea means to surfers because I think there are a lot of people who done that before in different kinds of forms, maybe videos or blog posts or whatever. But I was mainly interested in how do they, by taking a step away from the land, see what's happening on the land. So, yeah, I kind of think that that was my main inspiration to kind of turn it around and call it Sea-ing the Land instead of Landing the Sea.
Yeah, that's really interesting because as surfers, we obviously live on the land unless you live on a boat, I guess. So 95% of our lives is on land. And though we have this incredible love and respect for the sea, like if you were to ask me what the most important thing in my life is, I would say the ocean, right? It's been the most important, most present, most healing, most meditative part of my whole life. But if I look at it from that perspective, it's such a small part of my total existence. Probably even less than 5%, if you put all the hours that I spend in the water and I spend a lot in the water compared to when I'm on land. The thing that I'm most interested in is the sea.
Right? But, yeah, I really love that perspective because obviously what we do on the land influences what happens in the sea, even though we don't spend that much time in the sea, right?
Yeah and the other way around, right?
Yeah. So say a little bit more about that.
Yeah. Well, yeah, I really love that. One of my research participants or I would call them friends because I really am close with them when I was there and I spent a lot of time with them, she described it as a Figure 8 movement and I think that's such a nice metaphor. She said it's like constantly cycling. Whatever I do on land is influencing how I feel in the water. Maybe I had a shitty day on the land because I had to work all day and I get in the water and I surf bad as well because I'm stressed and I'm not relaxed. But then on the other way, maybe surfing in the water makes me relax. The way you said, it's like a meditative thing and therefore I will maybe have a good day on the land. At the same time, she also said it kind of restricts each other. You want to be in the water, but then you have to be on the land because maybe you have to work or have other things to do but whilst you're on the land, you also feel restricted by the sea because you have this big passion for the sea and you want to go surfing as much as possible. So, yeah, it is like this Figure 8 movement is, I think, a metaphor I use very often when I try to explain the way the people I talk to when I was there explained this way of looking at this interaction between the land and the sea.
I love that. That is also the symbol of infinity, right? Infinity is the similar image.
Yeah, very cool.
So for me, as kind of being landlocked here in the Netherlands because I don't live right next to the sea, it was so inspiring to talk to all these people and being able to talk to all these people because I was the anthropologist.
I kind of had the liberty to ask so many questions and just listen to people and let them talk. And so, yeah, I really like these 3 months I spent there.
You have this idea for the thesis, I guess, and maybe the book was part of that or it came later, what was your process like in picking the community? Why did you pick Australia and then why did you pick that particular part of Australia?
I must say there was a lot of coincidence as well, part of it. But I wanted to go like I said before, to a place where surfing is part of the daily life. So I think there were several options, maybe California would have been one, Hawaii and Australia. And then, I had a friend who had a friend who had a house for me in Australia, in Coolangatta, the place I wanted or which was on my list. And then I also wanted to go to a place which is kind of cold, like a surf mecca, which is very famous for surfing. And of course, every year at Snapper Rocks, they start a WSL tour. So then everything kind of came together. And the more I looked into it and the more I read about it and talked to people about it, I was like, yeah, this is the place I think I should go because it's a kind of a contest took place as well. You have a lot of surfers who want to be living the surfing lifestyle and then at the same time, it's also such a busy place and it's so famous. And people kind of want to protect that, I think. Like every surf spot, the locals want to protect their surf spot because if they share it with too many people, too many people come in. So, yeah, and it was a big guess, though, where I should go there or somewhere else. But then in the end, it was just coincidence that brought me there.
Yeah. You talk about the locals and I think this is a particular theme that probably goes across many very popular places. I even see it here where I live. And now that surfing, with COVID, I don't know what happened in Europe, but with COVID, so people couldn't travel, they couldn't go to national parks, so everyone started to surf. So we had this big surge in new surfers in California, which already had a lot, right? So did you study or I'm sure you observed that—I would call it the underbelly of surfing and localism—at all or did you kind of stay away from those aspects of surfing?
Well, in the end, I couldn't ignore it because it was something that came up many times. And Snapper Rocks or where we surf every day in Rainbow Bay, it was a very, very busy spot. I think I never saw something like that. So it was something that came up quite often in conversations with people. But I didn't want it to make it the focus of my research and what I wrote about. But it is part of it, of course. And it also kind of showed another aspect which our research is like more capitalistic processes at stake in that place and also kind of contesting this way of living between the land and the sea. And all these people did. So it was part of it, but I didn't want it to make it the biggest topic, because I think it is something that appears in many surf places around the world. And it's not specific or how would you say that in English? It's not the most important characteristic of this place.
Yeah, I think it's human nature, right? If you enjoy something like surfing and you've enjoyed that particular spot, for example, for years, and then all of a sudden there's a lot of people there, your enjoyment is going to decrease and there's going to be tensions and people will feel possessive. It's just in those circumstances, we're just seeing human emotion play out. Right? The same emotions that they have on the land, talk about Sea-ing the Land, right? So just because somebody is surfing doesn't mean all of a sudden they're some Buddha, right? There's still going to carry all of their personal traumas and maybe their work difficulties. It can be a reprieve from those things and it can help, I think, it can help us address a lot of those we'll call them land issues, right?
But I always say, usually, you're the same person in the water as you are out, but your higher self is maybe a little bit more elevated because you're in the water, you're in the sea. But I've seen it in myself where there are parts of myself that come out, that I was like, "Woah, where did that come from?"
Yeah, yeah. People get very competitive sometimes when there are not that many waves maybe. Yeah, I saw that there as well. I never surfed at such a high-quality surf spot before I went there and I was kind of used to some crowdedness, but compared to the crowd there, it was nothing. So it was for me, it was very stressful in the beginning. I was seeing all these kind of good surfers having a high level of surfing and then I was there as a noob from the Netherlands. It took me a while to kind of, yeah, get used to it and find my place in it. And yeah, we talked about it a lot. Also, the land was changing and therefore the sea was changing because there were a lot of new hotel buildings built. Of course, then more people will come because the land could kind of hold more people at the same time and therefore there will be more people in the sea. So it was very related to each other.
That's a great point. As the population rises in those areas or in any area, part of that's going to spill into the sea for sure. Right? That's why, as surf travelers, that's the one thing we try to get away from. We try to go to these destinations that are islands in the middle of nowhere or I just got back from Mexico. I was in Mexico last week. And you cross the border between America and Mexico. And it's just we're probably surfing an hour from the most crowded places in America— Trestles and all of those places. We're surfing alone, right? Just across the border.
I think, I don't know, I feel like this is such a big topic. For me and I think there are a lot of surfers like this, I would rather surf a less famous or less quality wave and have fewer people than fight for like 2 waves at a great spot. That's a great anthropological question too, right? Everyone has that or not everyone, but a lot of people have a decision, right? I'll drive an hour north to Mermaid Beach, right? Which is like 45 minutes probably from where you were or south if you go south or I'm just going to paddle out at Kirra and fight the crowds. What keeps people engaged in that fight or in that competition? I don't know what it is. Maybe when you're young and full of energy and aggressive, you're just like, "Forget it. I'm just going to do it." I don't know.
I would love to research that. I love how you already turn into an anthropologist while you're talking to me.
Yeah, yeah. No, I love anthropology also. I love to observe life and myself. And having been a surfer, I surf almost every day, obviously, these are questions that are always on my mind. Always things that I'm grappling with as somebody that's kind of looking at life, looking at my own life, looking at my own behaviors, and also trying to create the most enjoyable life possible. Right? I think that's what we all want. We all want maximum joy, like how do I have the best day, right? And if you're a surfer, that means, for me, it's not fighting for 2 waves. That for me, it's not high on my list, but it is for some people.
So what is the thing that's driving those people? That is such a good question. Because I don't know what it is.
I don't know the answer either, but I think there are a lot of things that add up to this. And it's also, I think, for example, where I was at Snapper Rocks, people also told me it's such a famous kind of wave and it also kind of very hyped in media and movies and everything that people have this great vision of it. And people just traveled there from all over the world to surf that 1 wave. It's kind of insane if you think about it. So I think there are kind of things going on that also drive people to all these famous waves. And then you're in the water and then you're like, "Oh, but I really don't like it because there are too many others and I have to fight for these 2 waves."
Yeah, but you get to put it on your Instagram page. So that's what counts, right? Yeah.
That's a weird thing. I find it weird. Yeah.
Yeah. Just studying human behavior from a social media aspect must be so fascinating also because a lot of people just do things for that very reason, right? Just to say that they've been there or they can show other people. And that's a whole another chapter of anthropology, right?
Definitely. And I think it's also that the last decades we saw that surfing sells. We see that with people posting on their own Instagram page. But we can also see that with brands which don't even have anything to do with surfing, using a surfboard in their commercial, which is weird in my opinion. But it's kind of something that got likable and sellable. So now we see it all over everything. And maybe that's also something that adds up to this crowdedness.
Interesting. Cool, let's talk about the book. So you do this, you go there, you do the research, you must have been taking photos and writing. So is it a part of your dissertation or is it kind of a side? So how did you come up with the idea, first of all?
Well, as I said before, next to being an anthropologist. I would also call myself a designer-artist. And I always had the ambition to not only write something that goes into the academia, something behind locked doors, and only like some professor read it and that's it. And I think the story I kind of captured there is something which I want to give back to the surfing community to make them think about Sea-ing the Land, but also other things I write and talk about. So, yeah, this kind of ambition and my background in art and design drove me to also take pictures and film whilst I was there next to doing what I have to do as an anthropologist. And then I wrote my dissertation, of course, and that I send it to the university and that's what I have to do. But I didn't feel closure or something and I didn't feel like my anthropological text was something I could give back to the surfing community. So then I thought of, okay, what else can I do and what do I have? And my whole computer was full of photo and video footage, and I feel guilty of only having it on my computer and not sharing it with anyone else. And then, yeah, I came up with this idea of turning it into a book, like a photo book with some small text in it to give some context. And that's what I've been working on the last year, I think. So there are parts of my thesis and dissertation in it, but it's mostly I have it here, I can show it to you. But of course, people listening to it, they can't see it.
People can't see it, yeah. It's beautiful.
But yeah, it's mostly photos with some small text and fragments from interviews I did. And that is something I can give back to not only the community I researched but also people outside the community which are interested in Sea-ing the Land and kind of getting to understand the surfing community a bit more. And then next to the book, I thought of like, "Okay, what can I do with this book? Can I just publish it and sell it, or maybe I should do something with it?" And then I was supposed to do an exhibition last year at the surfing festival here in the Netherlands, but, of course, due to COVID, it all got canceled and we were not allowed to have festivals. And the one thing that went through last summer were surf camps along the European coast. And then I thought maybe that's where I can build my own kind of audience and use that audience. So I came up with the idea of making a book tour along the European coast and yeah, go to several surf camps and go there with my book, but also make it a little bit more interesting to people. So I also made a small sensory movie to show them and an exhibition with photos so that people kind of can get into the sensory experience of being in the water of Rainbow Bay and in Australia.
Beautiful. So you're going to set up a tent, I think I saw? And then put video and then audio. Yeah, I love that idea.
I also want to kind of use it as a conversation starter. Like what we do now, talking about this idea of Sea-ing the Land. That's what I also would love to do with people coming to the exhibition.
Yeah. And I was looking at the tour dates. Great choices, by the way.
Yeah. I've spent a lot of time surfing in that area, the Messanges area and the southern coast of France and then of course in northern Spain. And I think it's just a wonderful way to share your story and to also have time to surf in those great places.
That's exactly what I'm going to do.
Yeah. So it's awesome. And I saw you didn't go into Portugal. Was it just too much?
I think for this summer, it was too much. I had 6 weeks before I go back to teaching anthropology at the university again. Yeah, for now I thought let's just see how far I get. And I thought, let's start with France, I can also go into Spain. And then after that my agenda was already quite packed and I was like, okay, let's see how this goes, and maybe next summer I can go to Portugal or even Morocco. That will be amazing.
Yeah, awesome. And have you surfed in that area of southern France?
You've been down there already, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been there many summers. Most of the time, my summer is spending in France and Spain and just being on a road trip somewhere in that area. So I know most of the spots I'm going to this summer and I'm really looking forward to just be near the coast for a while.
Yeah, I can imagine. Being in Holland you're like "Yeah, ready to go!" And I guess you're doing the tour, so things have opened up in Europe. More or less.
More or less. Just lately. It looks as if we are good to go if everything goes as planned. I'm leaving this Friday so that's in 2 days.
Yeah. So I'm busy with the preparations for everything, but it looks good right now and I don't really want to hear anything else. I just want to leave the country and go and hope that I can visit all these places and that it will stay the way it is right now.
Yeah. And are you driving from Holland?
Yes, I am. I have a car and a surfboard just go on my roof and then the back of my car will be filled with some books and the installation and yeah, I'll just be living out of my car for a while.
The van life.
Kind of, but I don't have a van. It's more a car.
Okay, well, the car life then.
Yeah. So how long of a drive is that for you?
I think the first part from here to France will be 12 hours. But I'm very lucky to have a friend that is coming with me so we can drive together, which I think kind of nice. But then once I'm in France and Spain, it's not that far away from each other. It's like I think the longest I have to drive is like 2 hours from one spot to the other. So I think that's very doable.
Yeah, very cool. And what kind of surfboard are you taking or what's your go-to surfboard? Longboard, shortboard?
I love longboarding, so I'm definitely going to bring my longboards and I just lately bought a smaller board like a 5'7, which I'm still trying to get to use to.
But when I was in Australia, I had a Mini Mal, a 6'6, which I really loved because, yeah, it was like surfing a longboard, but then it was a bit smaller.
Yeah. A 6'6, 6 foot 6 inches.
Yeah. It's from a friend of mine who shaped it. So, yeah, I want to go more into longboarding, that's why I'm definitely bringing my longboard and yeah, I want to learn to surf my 5'7, the smaller board I just bought. So I hope I will have time to do so and that the waves will be good to do so this summer.
Oh, I'm sure they will. They'll be amazing. Yeah. I love those beaches. Probably your shortboard's going to be your go-to board in the beach breaks and that sort of thing.
Yeah, I know but it's just that in Australia as well, most of the time where we'll have this mellow longboard wave. So that's when I really got into it and I started loving longboarding. So I hope I will also find some nice longboard waves as well because I think that's my preference. If I can choose, I will go for that.
Okay. I won't hold that against you. That's okay.
So I just have a couple more questions. What was your very first surfboard?
Oh, my God. I don't even know. I think it was a 8'2 or something. It was a long time ago, and I don't have it anymore.
You don't have it anymore?
No, I don't have it anymore. I think I sold it a couple of years now.
What's the story behind your first surfboard? How did it all go down?
Yeah, maybe I have to go a bit further back then because I grew up in Switzerland and I first had a passion for snowboarding. Well, I still have it. I think it's maybe even a bigger passion than surfing because I grew up with it. So I grew up in the mountains in Switzerland where I could go snowboarding every weekend in winter. And then I moved to the Netherlands, the flattest country on Earth, and people called me crazy. And I think I called myself crazy as well because I couldn't snowboard anymore. And then I had to come up with something similar. And yeah, I got into surfing here. And of course, the waves here in the Netherlands are not that great. But yeah, it kind of helped me to get over not being able to snowboard, and then we would just go every now and then to the ocean and we would rent a surfboard. And after that, I really started loving it and I thought I need my own. And then I think a friend of a friend who already surfed a little longer, she had her old surfboard. It was a really old one, not beautiful at all. But she said, "Well, if you want, you can have it and then you can go to the ocean even more often." And I just bought it from her and it was a really ugly big board. But yeah, it was nice in the beginning.
Exactly what you needed. Did you remember the brand of the board? Remember the name of it?
I think it was a Bic.
Bic, yeah. That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So that's the story of my first one.
Okay. And can you remember one wave, like that's the best wave I've ever caught.
Well, I think that was in Australia. That was definitely not here in the Netherlands. Well, I think Australians wouldn't even call it waves, but we do here because we don't have anything else. But I remember when I was in Australia, we were on a little road trip. I don't exactly know where we were, actually. And there was this uncrowded beach. There were, I think maybe only 2 or 3 surfers in the water. And compared to Snapper Rocks where we surf normally, that was like heaven on earth. And yeah, we slept in the car that night and then we got up early in the morning and it was beautiful and the water was very blue and the sun just came up and then we went out and the waves were just perfect for me. They were not too big, but there was a lot of power in them and I think that was my biggest wave I ever surfed. Or the biggest, also the best wave I ever surfed. It was just everything together. Not only the wave itself but also the whole thing around it, like being in this uncrowded wave somewhere in Australia I don't even know where.
Yeah, I think for a girl from Europe, that was a dream coming true.
Yeah. And what do you think your favorite trip was? Would you say your Australian trip or is there another trip that kind of stands out?
I think, looking at the surf I got, yes, definitely Australia, because I never had such a high quality of waves before. But then I also remember like 2 or 3 years ago, I think I went with some friends. I think we were like 4 girls of us. We had a van because one of the girls had a van and we were just on the road for the whole summer. And what I said, like France and Spain, and we just went where the waves were and we had a very nice time. So I think that trip, socially seem, that was very nice. But then, yeah, looking at the waves I got in Australia, I would say Australia was better.
Yeah, there are good waves in Europe. Many Americans or some Americans obviously have been there, but it's not really a surf destination for Americans. They go to Mexico or Bali, Indonesia. But I totally I just love surfing there.
I think it's just the consistency. You just need to know when you have to be whereas in other places, I think the consistency of good waves is a bit higher.
Yeah, absolutely. So if people want to find your book, where can they find it?
Well, you can find it on my website.
And there you get a link to my webshop for the book. My website is just very easy, kyralenting.com. And then you will find my project Sea-ing the Land where you can also find the book. And you also see some other stuff I wrote and did, which is in the field of anthropology and art. And yeah, so that's the place to go.
Great. And we'll put links to all of those things in the show notes. And then you also have an Instagram page?
Yes, definitely. It's a bit small right now because I haven't been on tour yet, but I'm going to share the whole tour on Instagram, which is also linked to the website. So, yeah, if you're interested to follow the journey, follow me on Instagram.
Great. So if you're in Europe or if you're going to Europe and you'll be in southern France, please stop by and say hello to you at any moment and see more.
I would love that. I would love that. Yeah, that would be amazing. And let's keep the conversation going.
Absolutely. I would love to keep this anthropological analysis of surfing going for sure. It's such a joy to have you here.
Yeah. I wish I could do the same research in different parts of the world because I think every land is different and therefore it is kind of Sea-ing the Land perspective will be different in all kinds of places on the world. So who knows? Maybe that's something I can do in the future.
Might be in your future. California next.
I would love it.
Thank you so much. Have a beautiful trip.
Thank you for having me. Thanks.